How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

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bob hess
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How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by bob hess » 13 Sep 2017, 16:47

Bear with me "351/400 Cleveland" fans. But for years I dismissed considering a Cleveland engine as a worth while ( bang for one's $$ ) engine swap candidate . Having been told all too often that unless it's a "BOSS" , it's just too heavy to "hot Rod" and still keep a fair amount of handeling . But a recent web search noted that the 351c/400m were ONLY 40 lbs. more then a 351w ( which WAS going to be the replacement engine for my old 289 / 67 cat.) And most of that 40 lbs. could be off set with using an aluminum intake and water pump . Not to mention ( finally getting around to moving the battery to the trunk ). (3) Questions come to mind.
(1) : What dose one need to make the swap ? ( org. 67" cougar / 289 ) IE: Motor mounts, power break booster ( the Cleveland "Looks" as wide as an 390 ) , bell housing , etc. ?
(2) ; Am I right to have read the web info right , that 351c 4v heads flow as well as " boss " heads ( hot street usage ) AND the 4v engines had 4 Bolt Mains ?
(3) And being a fan of " there is no substitute for cubic inches " . Should I be looking for a 400M 4v ? will I still be getting 4 bolt mains?
Why the 4 bolt main thing you ask ? My wish list is to Super charge the new engine ( Paxton style ) , so it would be reassuring to know the bottom end is up to the few times a year I plan on drag racing it .

Any and all help is very much appreciated , my friends.

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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by 1969XR7Vert » 13 Sep 2017, 17:30

1. I don't know about the '67 289 but the 351C will go in place of a 302 or 351W using same bellhousing, flexplate and engine mounts. The early 289's may have a different/smaller bellhousing I want to say?

2. 4V heads will flow similar or same to Boss heads but I do not recommend them for street use. The ports are too big. I run 195cc intake runner Trick Flow heads. 4V does not automatically mean 4 bolt mains, it is somewhat a crap shoot although the 71-73 CJ's are more likely to be 4 bolt I would say. And with a C, 4 bolt mains really are not much stronger/better than 2 bolt mains. The caps are the same size and the outer bolts are small and do not add that much in strength or locating since the caps sit in pockets anyway. Common wisdom is 4 bolt is always nice but 2 bolts are just fine (and I run 2 bolt).

3. 351M/400 blocks are taller, wider and most have the Lima (BBF) bellhousing. There are dual bolt pattern blocks out there and (I think I recall) there are SBF bellhousing blocks too but the BBF bell is the common one. M blocks/engines are an outgrowth of the C family (although severely smogged out at the time), they can be made to make big power (check out Tim Meyer for more on this). Having said all that, the M is tougher to fit where a small block was than the C. P.S. I run a 408C, a stroked 351C and I love it.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Robert
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by cj750 » 14 Sep 2017, 11:13

Good info from Robert.

I'll add that no 351M/400 came with 4V carb or heads, and all had 2 bolt mains. They also have big block (429/460) motor mount provisions, rather than the SBF style of the 351C. Given that issue, the different bellhousing pattern, and the extra height, width and weight of the 351M/400 blocks, plus the ready availability of stroker kits to get 400+ cubic inches from a C, there's really no reason to consider a 351M/400 swap into an early Cougar.
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by wish » 14 Sep 2017, 11:58

It looks like the 400 from 73 was available in the Windsor pattern and referred to as a 400FMX ...

http://351cleveland.wikifoundry.com/page/Block+400+FMX+

"However, in 1973 only, Ford produced a special version of the 400 with a small block bellhousing bolt pattern and dual motor mounts. This allows it to bolt up to a Pantera’s ZF bell-housing. BTW, the 400 is a taller deck (10.296" versus 9.2") cousin to the 351C with larger main journals"

Also there is a great picture there that shows the difference in deck height between the typical Windsor pattern and the larger 385 patterns.
Just my $.02
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by cj750 » 14 Sep 2017, 13:23

wish wrote:
14 Sep 2017, 11:58
It looks like the 400 from 73 was available in the Windsor pattern and referred to as a 400FMX ...

http://351cleveland.wikifoundry.com/page/Block+400+FMX+

"However, in 1973 only, Ford produced a special version of the 400 with a small block bellhousing bolt pattern and dual motor mounts. This allows it to bolt up to a Pantera’s ZF bell-housing. BTW, the 400 is a taller deck (10.296" versus 9.2") cousin to the 351C with larger main journals"
Good luck finding one of those!

And if you do, it'll still be bigger, heavier and enjoy far less aftermarket support than a C. Other than for someone who's just determined to be different, I still can't see the point of it.
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by 1969XR7Vert » 14 Sep 2017, 13:45

All of the above not withstanding, Tmeyer is making some pretty trick engines out of 351M/400's. The Cleveland crowd likes them for some reason (as evidenced by the postings on Clevelands Forever FB and online forum page (351C.net)).

Maybe it is because you can make big inches (even stroke the stock crank), use the stock block, etc. Cheaper than a stroker kit? But challenges to put it where a SBF family engine belongs...
Last edited by 1969XR7Vert on 15 Sep 2017, 08:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by cj750 » 14 Sep 2017, 16:14

I don't disagree that its possible to build a good running M/400. For the person with a car or truck that came with one, such a rebuild makes sense if improved performance is a priority. And I believe we also agree that they're still relatively poor choices to replace a SBF (either W or C) in a Cougar, Mustang, Fairlane, etc.
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by 7TXR7 » 15 Sep 2017, 01:28

I'm a fan of the Cleveland, but they will be a bit pricier to build than a Windsor due to the fact that the windsor is very popular. That said the W can make some great power. I like to do a motor that not everyone and their dog has...unless its original to the car. My next project will most likely be a stroker C much like Robert's mill. I had a '68 with a 72CJ Cleveland in it, originally a 302 car, fitment was same as the '70. Plus the C looks sexy in those small Cougar bays lol.
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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by 1969XR7Vert » 15 Sep 2017, 09:06

Here's a couple of shots of the Trick Flow 195 Port Port CNC ported heads I am running. They are considered a 2V style head and IMO are perfect for street use.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Isabel, the realization of a seven year long dream:



Canted--Texan on the351cforum: "One of my most impressive attributes is that.......a lot of people don't like me.....or the horse I rode in on"

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Re: How to spell (351) Cleveland with a " M"

Post by 1969XR7Vert » 15 Sep 2017, 09:18

7TXR7 wrote:
15 Sep 2017, 01:28
...Plus the C looks sexy in those small Cougar bays lol.
While I am VERY partial, I can't say I disagree with you on that!

Image

This was the first engine, before the 408C stroker, but you get the idea...
Isabel, the realization of a seven year long dream:



Canted--Texan on the351cforum: "One of my most impressive attributes is that.......a lot of people don't like me.....or the horse I rode in on"

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