Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

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bob hess
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Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by bob hess » 02 Dec 2017, 19:04

With other "muscle Car" prices going crazy , most Cougars prices look like down right barging. Sure there is the odd "testing the waters " owner that lists his car for $35-55K range . But most of us know $15-25K with get you a very nice ride . The question is , at what (price) point will we start to see FAKES ? Most of these guys at smart enough not to try to pass off some crazy like 69" BOSS 429 Cougar for $500,000 K . But offer a 427 or 428 cj equipped car , or an Eliminator that's NOT listed in the registry . Knowing they are not soooooo rare as that one would still be able to see / afford one ( given the right condition / price.) My point for asking this question is that a friend of a friend found his dream car ( the story gos , it was a 427 or 428 CJ GT / 68 cat. ) . But the car had been sooo damaged that the door plate, windshield and fender vins were gone ( odd that ALL 3 were missing , along with the engine & trans. ) . But a donor car ( 390 2v, 4 speed ) was use to make the car "Sound" again . NOW here is the Kicker ...... It was being sold in a state that DID NOT issue " titles , but just issued a yearly registration . And the seller had a vin. # that seemed to show it was a real ( rare ) GT .With a cash price that " seemed fair , all things considered ". Higher then a small block auto. equpt. car but lower then a rare Big Block GT .
A real deal or not , is not my question , but are we / will be ( with raising prices for all muscle era cars ) be seeing this possibility of Fakes coming out of states that don't issue proper documentation ? If these state(s) just "Rubber Stamp"( made up vin. # ) requests for registration of " Some old car " , just to get the income $$$$. What are we to do ??

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xr7g428
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by xr7g428 » 02 Dec 2017, 19:09

The Marti Report has solved most of these issues. Before the MR there were Q code '68 Cougars and lots of other BS being pedaled.
Bill Basore, Editor / Publisher
Legendary Cougar Magazine
Currently in the Cat House
'67 XR7 GT 390 4 speed, AC, AM FM, Lime Frost Green
'68 XR7-G 428CJ C6, Tilt-Away, AM, Black Cherry
'68 XR7-G 390 4 speed, Sunroof, Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 GT-E 427 C6 AM Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 resto mod 351W, soon to be AOD, Black Cherry

bob hess
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by bob hess » 02 Dec 2017, 21:21

From what I've been of others Marti Report, it tells about the car ( vin. you send them to look up )as it came from Ford . Not it's history ... right ?
Lets face it these guys are no dummies . Can't they be using Vins from gaps in given Registries to make up a given car . Few of us know of the cars made the same day of ours ( before / after ) . The bad guys are ( could be ) using numbers of real cars that have been taken to the crusher say. Many GT / muscle cars had a very hard life . Beaten at the track, totaled , stolen (striped) etc. So percentage wise many more of them are off the road ( permanently ) . And it is these hi-po / GT cars that now go for bigger $$ , and would be more likely to have had there vin numbers used by the Bad guys.
--- Please advise as to how a Marti Report is stopping this.--
Aren't they only able to just give one info on the Vin you send them ?
Use a real Vin from a demo-ed car and won't it just tell you how it started it's life .... Not it's (end) history .

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93RGTE
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by 93RGTE » 02 Dec 2017, 22:57

There is fake everything, and thieves and scammers abound. Caveat emptor. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. Do your due diligence - there are knowledgeable and willing people most everywhere who can evaluate any car prior to purchase.
With every identifying number missing, are you kidding? I wouldn't touch a car like that at any price.
Gary

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propayne
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by propayne » 03 Dec 2017, 06:23

I have already seen quite a few Eliminator clones.

The answer is a strong marque club, with active registries maintained by knowledgable and diligent enthusiasts, combined with original Ford paperwork/records provided by the likes of Kevin Marti should give any discerning prospective buyers the tools they need to figure out what they are looking at.

I for one would steer clear of the Cougar you described in your first post.

And concerning the registries; I don't think a lot of people understand how they work. As far as the Shelby registries and the G and GT-E registries go, the VINS are known (thanks to original Ford and Shelby records) for every Shelby, XR7-G and GT-E produced (though sometimes here-to-for unknown show cars or prototypes surface, but the registrars stay on top of this and update the info).

So many Shelbys for sale are listed with "it is in the registry" - as if the SAAC have inspected the car and deemed it authentic and have therefor accepted it into the appropriate registry.

They are ALL in the registry - each car's known and verifiable history is where the rub is.

- Phillip

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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by xr7g428 » 03 Dec 2017, 10:46

bob hess wrote:
02 Dec 2017, 21:21
From what I've been of others Marti Report, it tells about the car ( vin. you send them to look up )as it came from Ford . Not it's history ... right ?
Lets face it these guys are no dummies . Can't they be using Vins from gaps in given Registries to make up a given car . Few of us know of the cars made the same day of ours ( before / after ) . The bad guys are ( could be ) using numbers of real cars that have been taken to the crusher say. Many GT / muscle cars had a very hard life . Beaten at the track, totaled , stolen (striped) etc. So percentage wise many more of them are off the road ( permanently ) . And it is these hi-po / GT cars that now go for bigger $$ , and would be more likely to have had there vin numbers used by the Bad guys.
--- Please advise as to how a Marti Report is stopping this.--
Aren't they only able to just give one info on the Vin you send them ?
Use a real Vin from a demo-ed car and won't it just tell you how it started it's life .... Not it's (end) history .
Thieves are stupid and will try stupid things, and you can't fix stupid so no system will stop all bad actors. Given that...

Remember that the entire system of registration is setup to make it hard to commit fraud. To begin with there is the VIN data held by the states and shared through the federal government. If you try to register a car in say Arizona and Virginia at the same time it will get kicked back. This applies doubly when you go to get it insured. So using an existing VIN and trying to duplicate the car is not a good idea. Just tampering with the VIN is a felony so this would be a bad idea.

There are no gaps that can be relied upon for guesstimating a VIN. The last five digits of the VIN will tell you when the car was serialized, but nothing about when it ran down the line. There are cases of several months of delay. Even the scheduled build date is more of a suggestion than anything else. It is very unusual to find a car that was built on the day it was originally scheduled.

Finding a needle in a hay stack would be easier than guestimating a VIN. I wrote the following about a very rare and valuable Cougar:

There were only three. Out of 113,741 Cougars only three would combine the GT-E package with the 428 Cobra Jet engine and a 4 speed manual transmission. Lets just consider what that means. Lets say you wanted to find the invoice for this particular Cougar, and you could flip through them at the rate of one invoice per minute, and you could keep that up for 24 hours a day. It would take you almost 79 days to flip thorough them all.

More specifically, a Marti Report will tell you what to look for. In addition to the usual VIN stamps on the body, engine, and transmission, you would look for other things. By knowing the list of options you would look for the correct chassis modifications. First off, is it an XR-7 or standard? you can tell by looking for certain holes in the body that would not be present in a Standard. Was the door post drilled for the extra switch needed for tilt away? was the core support punched out for AC? are the holes for dual exhaust hangers in the right place? are the reinforcement plates under the rear seat if it was big block 4 speed? Does the trunk lid have the correct bracing for the build date? Was it built in Dearborn or San Jose? knowledgeable people armed with a Marti Report can spot the differences. The point being that the VIN (supplied to Marti) can tell us what else has to line up right down to the date codes on body panels. I can't say that it would be impossible to find a car that matched all the correct clues, but if you did it would be very difficult.

In the final analysis an educated buyer will not easily get taken. Mostly the folks that get cheated are almost willing participants. They think they have the inside line on a real "steal" of a deal and instead of doing the proper investigation, they rush into the deal before some one else can beat them to it.
Bill Basore, Editor / Publisher
Legendary Cougar Magazine
Currently in the Cat House
'67 XR7 GT 390 4 speed, AC, AM FM, Lime Frost Green
'68 XR7-G 428CJ C6, Tilt-Away, AM, Black Cherry
'68 XR7-G 390 4 speed, Sunroof, Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 GT-E 427 C6 AM Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 resto mod 351W, soon to be AOD, Black Cherry

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xr7g428
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by xr7g428 » 03 Dec 2017, 11:00

Regarding this car:

My point for asking this question is that a friend of a friend found his dream car ( the story gos , it was a 427 or 428 CJ GT / 68 cat. ) . But the car had been sooo damaged that the door plate, windshield and fender vins were gone ( odd that ALL 3 were missing , along with the engine & trans. ) . But a donor car ( 390 2v, 4 speed ) was use to make the car "Sound" again . NOW here is the Kicker ...... It was being sold in a state that DID NOT issue " titles , but just issued a yearly registration . And the seller had a vin. # that seemed to show it was a real ( rare ) GT .With a cash price that " seemed fair , all things considered ". Higher then a small block auto. equpt. car but lower then a rare Big Block GT .

If it were a 427 car then it would have to be a GT-E or one very specific XR-7. If it were a GT-E there are many specific identifiers that you can look for (no holes for the fender trim, holes for the rear aluminum side trim etc...) Plus all GT-E VINs are known to the registrar, including the ones that have never been found or disclosed to the public. If it were a 428 car we would look for the shock tower reinforcements and several other 428 features, in particular the build dates. As to being a GT, in that sad shape it wouldn't make any difference the GT badge alone doesn't add enough value to a carcass. The 390 2V 4 speed should also raise a red flag: they didn't build any.
Bill Basore, Editor / Publisher
Legendary Cougar Magazine
Currently in the Cat House
'67 XR7 GT 390 4 speed, AC, AM FM, Lime Frost Green
'68 XR7-G 428CJ C6, Tilt-Away, AM, Black Cherry
'68 XR7-G 390 4 speed, Sunroof, Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 GT-E 427 C6 AM Cardinal Red
'68 XR7 resto mod 351W, soon to be AOD, Black Cherry

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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by J_Speegle » 03 Dec 2017, 16:22

Guess by asking "Yet" your relating what has and continues to go on for decades to Cougars as their prices for some specific models rise.

There are so many different ways these things play out there is not one answer as every possible car, situation and buyer(target) is different. But the risings or higher values do often bring with them IMHO an additional wrinkle of the "good deal" - the added pressure if "if I don't jump on this someone else will" Which reduces the chance that the target/buyer will research the car, reach out to others or have time to get someone that knows the cars to inspect it before money changes hands. This goes for people with shallow and deep pockets.

Implied trustworthiness (be it a shop, business or individual) can be as dangerous as a back woods barn find in these cases. Often that have been taken advantage of are less likely to make it public and these things (when purchased from well know shops) get dealt with privately if not just passed on quickly and quietly to the next buyer. Legal proceedings are rare.

As far as titles if your discussing the very rare or expensive (read worth faking) they often don't mean allot since the regulating agencies (deal with them often) are only focused on a couple of details. Right shock towers, original engines, correct body.......... they don't car and the title does not relate to that sort of details.

Of course (as I mentioned there are many angles to all of this) the idea that only the rarest and most valuable cars are the ones being faked .... the reverse thinking also make it tempting to others since "why would anyone fake a _______" fill in the blank.

And finally we tend to not have indepth discussions into how to identify one way or another online in public since this only goes to educate the possibly purchases as well as the bad guys so the details are not easy to come by for good reason. Another two edge sword.

Sorry too much of a rant but deal with this weekly or at least monthly. Worst example is that I looked at three fakes all within a week and a half time period all the cars were within 40 miles of one another and two of them had the DMV involved and in those DMV officers were somewhat convinced they were ok enough to issue title/registration until they had a concern and we started talking

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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by ClawIt » 05 Dec 2017, 12:15

xr7g428 wrote:
03 Dec 2017, 10:46


There were only three. Out of 113,741 Cougars only three would combine the GT-E package with the 428 Cobra Jet engine and a 4 speed manual transmission.
Also 3 428 CJ Gs with 4 speeds.

I'm not so sure Cougar prices are on the rise, except for the usual suspects.

bob hess
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Re: Fact OR FAKE .... Are we at risk yet ????

Post by bob hess » 06 Dec 2017, 00:10

Many thanks one and all . Many of the fine points of what makes up a given (rare) cat were welcomed news . And on that point , even with the risk of detailing these features of different prized cougars to the bad guys , I still think more people would be helped then harmed knowing the true facts ! For the most part we are not taking about giving the bad guys the means to make better fakes , but letting them know that " many more people are out there ARMED with the facts" , so do you really want to risk trying to sell a fake _____ ( fill in the blank ) ? Lets face it , what it would take to "manufacture" what we now know are super low number of( a given car ) would just be way to time consuming for guys that are used to turning cars quickly, Or at least we hope so ( they know that the longer they have the "fake" , the better the chances are they will get caught) . And lets face it except for the super rare cats most are bring much lower $$$ then say a Shelby or GT Mustang. So why not spend your time "faking" one of them , and make a lot more money ?. I would add that I think that if we still think that the fine points of what make a given GT a GT , or GTE a GTE etc. NOT BE LISTED on the site as general information ,( giving bad guys this info , would help add to the # of fakes ). Then at least make up a " tell me what you see " list . IE: " what do you see at the bottom of the ( would be ) GT / 428 CJ shock towers that differ from a small block car ? Or " how many holes in a given spot " , when NO holes should be there at all . In this way it can be helping the would be buyer, but NOT informing the bad guys on what to fabricate on there fakes .Sure some group of well informed members would need to be listed as the "go to" guys ( experts one might say in a given category ) , but it wouldn't be much different then this open forum. Just more "one on one" .
INFORMATION ( knowledge ) IS POWER , AND IT IS BEST SHARED .... Not reserved for the (elite) few . Be well my friends !

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